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Join two of the leading educators in manual therapy, bodywork, and massage therapy, as they delve into the most intriguing issues, questions, research, and client conditions that hands-on practitioners face. Stimulate your thinking with imaginative conversations, tips, and interviews related to the somatic arts and sciences.
Episodes

Wednesday Jun 25, 2025
147: Palpating Fibrosis, Easing Inflammation (with Geoffrey Bove and Holly McMillan)
Wednesday Jun 25, 2025
Wednesday Jun 25, 2025
šWhat can trained hands feel in irradiated tissueāand how might that inform both research and practice?
In this episode, Til Luchau and guest cohost Cathy Ryan, RMT, talk with neurobiologist Dr. Geoffrey Bove and manual therapist/speech pathologist Holly McMillan about their collaborative animal study. They explore how massage therapy may influence radiation-induced fibrosis, the use of palpation as a formal outcome, and the challenges of correlating what we feel with what science can measure. This wide-ranging discussion offers practical takeaways for manual therapists working with inflammation, scarring, or post-radiation clients.
Stick around after the outro for a candid āoff-micā bonus segment where Holly describes her hands-on work in surgical oncology settings.
ā±ļø Key Topics:
ā¢āÆ00:01:31 ā Introductions: Cathy Ryan, Geoffrey Bove, Holly McMillan
ā¢āÆ00:03:09 ā Why this study was exciting to manual therapists
ā¢āÆ00:04:18 ā Geoffrey Bove on inflammation, nerves, and fibrosis research
ā¢āÆ00:08:14 ā Holly: how findings might apply beyond radiation cases
ā¢āÆ00:13:20 ā Holly explains what she was feeling for in irradiated limbs
ā¢āÆ00:14:23 ā āBuoyancyā and the difficulty of articulating touch-based findings
ā¢āÆ00:18:25 ā How palpation findings relate to pathology and imaging
ā¢āÆ00:20:59 ā Fibrosis and lymphedema as a clinical continuum
ā¢āÆ00:23:36 ā Timing differences in fibrosis between surgery and radiation
ā¢āÆ00:24:52 ā Study limitations: assay sensitivity vs. palpation sensitivity
ā¢āÆ00:27:00 ā Movementās role in mitigating radiation effects
ā¢āÆ00:29:00 ā The importance of community, alliance, and social touch
ā¢āÆ00:33:27 ā Timing of manual therapy before and after radiation
ā¢āÆ00:35:00 ā Prevention vs. treatment of fibrosis
ā¢āÆ00:37:18 ā What kind of touch is most helpful, and when
ā¢āÆ00:40:00 ā Oncology-specific timing considerations for manual therapy
ā¢āÆ00:42:29 ā Manual therapy goals in early vs. late stages post-surgery
ā¢āÆ00:44:09 ā What practitioners are really touching: inflammation, edema, fibrosis
ā¢āÆ00:45:49 ā Apprenticeship vs. protocol-driven training in touch therapy
ā¢āÆ00:47:34 ā Final thoughts from Geoffrey and Holly
ā¢āÆ00:50:56 ā Bonus: āOff-micā conversationāHollyās stories from surgical manual therapy work
ā¢āÆ00:51:09 ā Holly describes doing manual therapy in open surgical fields
ā¢āÆ00:52:13 ā Avoiding surgery or enabling access through touch
ā¢āÆ00:53:27 ā āSun-dried tomatoā vs. ābeef jerkyā: metaphors for tissue change
ā¢āÆ00:54:15 ā Scar tissue, fibrosis, nociceptors, and innervation
ā¢āÆ00:55:57 ā The gap between pain-focused and function-focused care
ā¢āÆ00:57:08 ā āThe Diary of Hollyā and the value of descriptive clinical cases
Resources discussed in this episode:Ā
- Study:
- Bove, G. M., McMillan, H., & Barbe, M. F. (2024). Evaluating massage therapy for radiation-induced fibrosis in rats: preliminary findings and palpation results. Cancer Biology & Therapy, 25(1). https://doi.org/10.1080/15384047.2024.2436694Ā
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/10.1080/15384047.2024.2436694Ā and supplemental file https://advanced-trainings.com/materials_ttp/147_bove_supplemental_kcbt_a_2436694_sm2290.pdfĀ
- Bove, G. M., McMillan, H., & Barbe, M. F. (2024). Evaluating massage therapy for radiation-induced fibrosis in rats: preliminary findings and palpation results. Cancer Biology & Therapy, 25(1). https://doi.org/10.1080/15384047.2024.2436694Ā
- Also mentioned in this episode:
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McMillan, H., Barbon, C. E. A., Cardoso, R., Sedory, A., Buoy, S., Porsche, C., Savage, K., Mayo, L., & Hutcheson, K. A. (2022). Manual Therapy for Patients With Radiation-Associated Trismus After Head and Neck Cancer.Ā JAMA otolaryngology-- head & neck surgery,Ā 148(5), 418ā425. https://doi.org/10.1001/jamaoto.2022.0082
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Hutcheson, K., McMillan, H., Warneke, C., Porsche, C., Savage, K., Buoy, S., Wang, J., Woodman, K., Lai, S., & Fuller, C. (2021). Manual Therapy for Fibrosis-Related Late Effect Dysphagia in head and neck cancer survivors: the pilot MANTLE trial.Ā BMJ open,Ā 11(8), e047830. https://doi.org/10.1136/bmjopen-2020-047830
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McMillan, H., Warneke, C. L., Buoy, S., Porsche, C., Savage, K., Lai, S. Y., Fuller, C. D., & Hutcheson, K. A. (2025). Manual Therapy for Fibrosis-Related Late Effect Dysphagia in Head and Neck Cancer Survivors: The MANTLE Nonrandomized Clinical Trial.Ā JAMA otolaryngology-- head & neck surgery,Ā 151(4), 319ā327. https://doi.org/10.1001/jamaoto.2024.5157
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Sponsor Offers:Ā
- Books of Discovery: save 15% by entering "thinking" at checkout on booksofdiscovery.com.Ā
- ABMP: save $24 on new membership at abmp.com/thinking.Ā
- Advanced-Trainings: try a month of the amazing A-T Subscription free by entering āthinkingā at checkout at a-t.tv/subscriptions/,.
- Academy of Clinical Massage: Grab Whitney's valuable Assessment Cheat Sheet for free at:Ā academyofclinicalmassage.com/cheatsheet
- Fascia Research Congress: save $100 when you use the coupon code "THINKING" atĀ https://www.frscongress.org/Ā
š” Join the Conversation: Share your thoughts with us! info@thethinkingpractitioner.comĀ
⨠Rate, review, and share! Help others discover The Thinking Practitioner podcast.
š Get the full transcript at Til or Whitney's sites!Ā
- Whitney Loweās site: AcademyOfClinicalMassage.comĀ
- Til Luchauās site: Advanced-Trainings.com Ā
About Whitney LoweĀ | About Til LuchauĀ |Ā Email Us: info@thethinkingpractitioner.com
(The Thinking Practitioner Podcast is intended for professional practitioners of manual and movement therapies: bodywork, massage therapy, structural integration, chiropractic, myofascial and myotherapy, orthopedic, sports massage, physical therapy, osteopathy, yoga, strength and conditioning, and similar professions. It is not medical or treatment advice.)
![[Class Announcement Episode!] Leg Knee & Foot Masterclass (Thomas Myers with Til Luchau)](https://pbcdn1.podbean.com/imglogo/ep-logo/pbblog6037716/146b_leg2_04_20101030_145403_8116_edited-20101112dk_720x96089ysz_300x300.jpg)
Wednesday Jun 18, 2025
[Class Announcement Episode!] Leg Knee & Foot Masterclass (Thomas Myers with Til Luchau)
Wednesday Jun 18, 2025
Wednesday Jun 18, 2025
šIn this special mini-episode, Til Luchau previews his upcoming Leg, Knee & Foot Masterclass (August 17ā19, 2025 in Walpole, Maine) while catching up with his longtime friend and colleague Thomas Myers, founder of Anatomy Trains and host of the Anatomy Trains Summer Program.Ā
Together, they reflect on:
-
How their teachingāand their excitement for itāhas evolved
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Why the leg, knee, and foot deserve more focused attention
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The meaning of mastery after decades in the field
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The value of proprioception and embodied experience in our work
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How hands-on practice helps restore a felt sense of connection in uncertain times
šļø Tilās Leg, Knee & Foot Masterclass takes place August 17ā19, 2025 in Walpole, Maine, as part of the Anatomy Trains Summer Program.
Learn more and register at:
- https://advanced-trainings.com/workshops/Ā
- https://www.anatomytrains.com/product/leg-knee-foot-masterclass-advanced-myofascial-techniques-with-til-luchauĀ
Sponsor Offers:Ā
- Books of Discovery: save 15% by entering "thinking" at checkout on booksofdiscovery.com.Ā
- ABMP: save $24 on new membership at abmp.com/thinking.Ā
- Advanced-Trainings: try a month of the amazing A-T Subscription free by entering āthinkingā at checkout at a-t.tv/subscriptions/,.
- Academy of Clinical Massage: Grab Whitney's valuable Assessment Cheat Sheet for free at:Ā academyofclinicalmassage.com/cheatsheet
- Fascia Research Congress: save $100 when you use the coupon code "THINKING" atĀ https://www.frscongress.org/Ā
š” Join the Conversation: Share your thoughts with us! info@thethinkingpractitioner.comĀ
⨠Rate, review, and share! Help others discover The Thinking Practitioner podcast.
š Get the full transcript at Til or Whitney's sites!Ā
- Whitney Loweās site: AcademyOfClinicalMassage.comĀ
- Til Luchauās site: Advanced-Trainings.com Ā
About Whitney LoweĀ | About Til LuchauĀ |Ā Email Us: info@thethinkingpractitioner.com
(The Thinking Practitioner Podcast is intended for professional practitioners of manual and movement therapies: bodywork, massage therapy, structural integration, chiropractic, myofascial and myotherapy, orthopedic, sports massage, physical therapy, osteopathy, yoga, strength and conditioning, and similar professions. It is not medical or treatment advice.)

Wednesday Jun 11, 2025
146: Inflammation, Touch, & the Grieving Body (with Mary-Frances OāConnor)
Wednesday Jun 11, 2025
Wednesday Jun 11, 2025
šGrief is not just an emotionāitās a full-body experience. In this episode, Til Luchau talks with neuroscientist and psychologist Mary-Frances OāConnor, author of The Grieving Body, about how grief changes the brain, affects inflammation, and alters our physiology. They explore how attachment loss rewires the brain, how inflammatory responses shape behavior and mood, and how the body experiences grief via physical sensations.
They also discuss the role of touch, bodywork, and therapeutic presence in supporting people through grief, and together they reflect on the profound connections between grief, the body, and the healing power of human connection.
š Key Topics:
- 04:30 ā Grief and the brain: What happens in the mind-body connection
- 10:45 ā Grief is not toxic: A new understanding of pain and loss
- 16:00 ā How inflammation shapes behavior and mood in grief
- 24:00 ā Attachment loss and the nervous system: Polyvagal insights
- 32:45 ā The physical sensations of grief: aches, tension, and holding patterns
- 38:00 ā Touch as co-regulation: What bodywork can offer in grief
- 44:15 ā Grief as a lifelong, embodied process, not something to get over
- 50:10 ā Practical insights for bodyworkers supporting grieving clients
- 55:30 ā How understanding the bodyās role in grief can transform our approach
š” Join the Conversation: Share your thoughts with us! info@thethinkingpractitioner.comĀ
⨠Rate, review, and share! Help others discover The Thinking Practitioner podcast.
š Get the full transcript at Til or Whitney's sites!Ā
- Whitney Loweās site: AcademyOfClinicalMassage.comĀ
- Til Luchauās site: Advanced-Trainings.comĀ
Resources discussed in this episode:Ā
- Two of Mary-Frances OāConnor's books:
- The Grieving Brain https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-grieving-brain-mary-frances-oconnorĀ
- The Grieving Body https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-grieving-body-mary-frances-oconnorĀ
Sponsor Offers:Ā
- Books of Discovery: save 15% by entering "thinking" at checkout on booksofdiscovery.com.Ā
- ABMP: save $24 on new membership at abmp.com/thinking.Ā
- Advanced-Trainings: try a month of the amazing A-T Subscription free by entering āthinkingā at checkout at a-t.tv/subscriptions/,.
- Academy of Clinical Massage: Grab Whitney's valuable Assessment Cheat Sheet for free at:Ā academyofclinicalmassage.com/cheatsheet
- Fascia Research Congress: save $100 when you use the coupon code "THINKING" atĀ https://www.frscongress.org/Ā
About Whitney LoweĀ | About Til LuchauĀ |Ā Email Us: info@thethinkingpractitioner.com
(The Thinking Practitioner Podcast is intended for professional practitioners of manual and movement therapies: bodywork, massage therapy, structural integration, chiropractic, myofascial and myotherapy, orthopedic, sports massage, physical therapy, osteopathy, yoga, strength and conditioning, and similar professions. It is not medical or treatment advice.)

Wednesday May 28, 2025
145: Can Discs Heal? (with Stuart McGill)
Wednesday May 28, 2025
Wednesday May 28, 2025
šĀ World-renowned spine expert Dr. Stuart McGill returns for a deep dive into the complexities of disc healing and adaptation, back pain mechanics, and what manual and movement therapists need to understand about spinal loading, adaptation, and practitioner longevity. In this rich and wide-ranging conversation with Til Luchau and Whitney Lowe, Dr. McGill offers both cutting-edge science and practical insights for helping clientsāand ourselvesāmove with more strength, resilience, and less pain.
š Key Topics:
-
(04:43)āÆCan Discs Heal or Adapt? ā What the science says about disc recovery and tissue response.
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(09:47)āÆPosture vs. Load-Driven Pain ā Simple tests to differentiate pain sources.
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(14:12)āÆDisc Architecture & Adaptation ā Why discs donāt respond like tendons.
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(19:38)āÆMobility vs. Load Capacity ā The trade-offs between flexibility and strength.
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(25:41)āÆDisc Bulges, Schmorlās Nodes & End Plate Damage ā How structure influences symptoms.
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(32:10)āÆMcKenzie Techniques: When They Work & When They Donāt ā What recent studies reveal.
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(41:19)āÆGrooving New Movement Patterns ā Lasting change requires more than mobility.
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(45:57)āÆThe Biological Spectrum ā Why not all bodies adapt the same.
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(52:55)āÆLong Fascial Chains & Functional Release ā Lessons from the fascia world.
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(59:00)āÆChronic vs. Repeated Acute Pain ā Empowering clients through precision assessment.
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(1:00:13)āÆBodyworker Longevity & Spinal Mechanics ā How therapists can protect their own backs.
š” Join the Conversation: Share your thoughts with us! info@thethinkingpractitioner.comĀ
⨠Rate, review, and share! Help others discover The Thinking Practitioner podcast.
š Get the full transcript at Til or Whitney's sites!Ā
- Whitney Loweās site: AcademyOfClinicalMassage.comĀ
- Til Luchauās site: Advanced-Trainings.comĀ
Resources discussed in this episode:Ā
- Stuart McGill's site: https://backfitpro.comĀ Ā
Sponsor Offers:Ā
- Books of Discovery: save 15% by entering "thinking" at checkout on booksofdiscovery.com.Ā
- ABMP: save $24 on new membership at abmp.com/thinking.Ā
- Advanced-Trainings: try a month of the amazing A-T Subscription free by entering āthinkingā at checkout at a-t.tv/subscriptions/,.
- Academy of Clinical Massage: Grab Whitney's valuable Assessment Cheat Sheet for free at:Ā academyofclinicalmassage.com/cheatsheet
- Fascia Research Congress: save $100 when you use the coupon code "THINKING" atĀ https://www.frscongress.org/Ā
About Whitney LoweĀ | About Til LuchauĀ |Ā Email Us: info@thethinkingpractitioner.com
(The Thinking Practitioner Podcast is intended for professional practitioners of manual and movement therapies: bodywork, massage therapy, structural integration, chiropractic, myofascial and myotherapy, orthopedic, sports massage, physical therapy, osteopathy, yoga, strength and conditioning, and similar professions. It is not medical or treatment advice.)

Wednesday May 14, 2025
144: Fascia, Emotion, Inflammation, & Attention (with Robert Schleip)
Wednesday May 14, 2025
Wednesday May 14, 2025
šIn this thought-provoking episode, Til and Whitney welcome back fascia researcher Robert Schleip to explore the evolving science behind fasciaās role in emotional regulation, inflammation, and sensory experience. They dive into Schleipās keynote for the upcoming 7th International Fascia Research Congress and discuss emerging research on fascia as a dynamic neuro-immune interface.
Robert shares his updates on fascinating insights into attention, depression, touch, circadian rhythms, and how fascia may bridge body and mind in ways weāre only beginning to understand.
š Key Topics
-
04:15 ā Schleipās keynote preview: fascia, emotion, and immune interaction
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06:09 ā The new direction of the 2025 Fascia Research Congress
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07:55 ā Polyvagal theory and fascia: Schleip on Porges and the vagus nerve
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12:15 ā Fascia and depression: new findings on thickened epimysium
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20:47 ā Foam rolling, mindful attention, and emotional filtering in depression
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26:12 ā Reticular formation, attention, and touch outcomes
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32:07 ā Therapist vs client attention: new data on treatment impact
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37:12 ā The history and evolution of the Fascia Research Congress
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44:04 ā Fascia, safety, and perceptual context
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48:00 ā Sliding fascia and emotional stress: 48-hour delay and resilience
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51:40 ā New paradigm: from force transmission to circadian rhythms and synthesis
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56:21 ā Schleipās takeaway: return to wonder and curiosity under the stars
š” Join the Conversation:Ā Share your thoughts with us!
š Sponsored by: ABMP and Books of Discovery, with in-kind support from the Fascia Research Society
⨠Rate, review, and share! Help others discover The Thinking Practitioner podcast.
š Get the full transcript at Til or Whitney's sites!Ā
- Whitney Loweās site: AcademyOfClinicalMassage.comĀ
- Til Luchauās site: Advanced-Trainings.comĀ
Resources discussed in this episode:Ā
- Fascia Research Congress: save $100 when you use the coupon code "THINKING" atĀ https://www.frscongress.org/Ā
Sponsor Offers:Ā
- Books of Discovery: save 15% by entering "thinking" at checkout on booksofdiscovery.com.Ā
- ABMP: save $24 on new membership at abmp.com/thinking.Ā
- Advanced-Trainings: try a month of the amazing A-T Subscription free by entering āthinkingā at checkout at a-t.tv/subscriptions/,.
- Academy of Clinical Massage: Grab Whitney's valuable Assessment Cheat Sheet for free at:Ā academyofclinicalmassage.com/cheatsheet
- Fascia Research Congress: save $100 when you use the coupon code "THINKING" atĀ https://www.frscongress.org/Ā
About Whitney LoweĀ | About Til LuchauĀ |Ā Email Us: info@thethinkingpractitioner.com
(The Thinking Practitioner Podcast is intended for professional practitioners of manual and movement therapies: bodywork, massage therapy, structural integration, chiropractic, myofascial and myotherapy, orthopedic, sports massage, physical therapy, osteopathy, yoga, strength and conditioning, and similar professions. It is not medical or treatment advice.)